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#22498 - 05/25/07 10:43 AM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
 Quote:
Originally posted by homemadebycarol:
There's no single factor contributing to it as it's a complex issue but let's not forget oil companies are posting record high profits, (that's "record-high" as in the highest of any corporations in America's history). They raise prices because they can.



Their profits are about 10% . . . I think that is rather low and would prefer to make 20% on my money I invest, which I'm sure they would rather make. Deana

MORE TAXES, CHEAPER GAS...NOT

Pennsylvania Republican Arlen Specter, really just a Democrat with an R next to his name, has proposed a way to "get even" with the oil companies. You see, since they're earning so much money with the price of oil the way it is, he wants to institute a windfall profits tax. Given the overall state of economic ignorance in this country (thanks to government schools) he just might get it through. But it is a terrible idea. Let's count the ways why.

First of all, memorize the following sentence and commit it to memory for as long as you live: corporations do not pay taxes. The shareholders and customers of corporations pay those taxes. So guess what that means? If Senator Specter gets his way, the oil companies will simply just raise prices to cover their loss to the government. So by "punishing" ExxonMobil for being successful, Specter is really punishing the public. Nice going.

Specter is trying to score cheap political points by validating public ignorance about high gasoline prices. He's pretending to buy into the school that gas prices are high because the oil companies are inflating the prices to increase their profits. It's a conspiracy! Well, if that's the case, then it must be a conspiracy that stretches all the way around the globe. Because right now oil is at $75 a barrel everywhere. That's the single biggest factor in the price of gasoline right there. Do the oil companies control the price of a barrel of oil? Nope.

And besides...don't we want American oil companies to make huge profits? Isn't that the idea...to bring that money home? I guess in Arlen Specter's world, facts and common sense don't rate very high. Just another day in the life of a Washington politician. Oh, and check this quote from Carl Levin, Senate Democrat, about the windfall profits tax: "If the president would call the oil companies into the Oval Office and tell them he's going to support a windfall profits tax ... I'll bet that the price of gasoline would come down within a matter of days."

Oh really? Since high oil prices are a big reason George W. Bush's popularity is in the tank, don't you think that if he had control over the price of gasoline that he would do something about it?

Bottom line: Politicians like Specter and Levin can demagogue this issue for political gain because of the ignorance of the American people on issues such as profits vs. profit margins, an ignorance born and nurtured in our hideous system of state-controlled education.
_________________________

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#22499 - 05/25/07 10:55 AM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ginny:


I don't even want to think about how many dollars I spent during the 1.5 hours that I sat on I-44 yesterday when all eastbound lanes were closed down because of a serious accident.


Imagine doing that daily (5 days a week) in the car rider line for months on end~! LOL Me I leave home at 2:45 and have child in car and zipping back down the road @ 2:50'ish'. Some roll their windows down and sit & read but MANY sit there with engines idling . . . I know because I see them from the library windows on days I volunteer. Such a waste of energy & money not to mention the wear & tear on their vehicles AND pollution to boot.

Deana
_________________________

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#22500 - 05/25/07 11:11 AM Re: Gas Prices
CorvetteElaine Offline
Elf VP

Registered: 01/17/00
Posts: 2262
Loc: Ohio
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Qwackertoo:
[B]Elaine, you might enjoy this when thinking about the cost of your gasoline to Kentucky, a light-hearted article by Neal Boortz.

"JUST STOP WHINING ABOUT GASOLINE PRICES"

What's funny is of all our cars, the Corvette gets the BEST gas mileage! It's the only one that takes premium too.

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#22501 - 05/25/07 12:09 PM Re: Gas Prices
homemadebycarol Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 05/04/99
Posts: 3942
Loc: Reno, NV
 Quote:
Originally posted by Qwackertoo:
Their profits are about 10% . . . I think that is rather low and would prefer to make 20% on my money I invest, which I'm sure they would rather make. Deana



I think we can find all sorts of supporting and dissenting information from the various factions of the media & politicians depending on what we look for. But the nice thing about public companies is their published financial data so the public can see the raw data if they choose to.

From Exxon's public financial statements (www.exxon.com):
Growth in sales from 2002 to 2006 increased 82%
2002 net income = 11,460M
2006 net income = 39,500M
Growth in net income: 244%

Royal Dutch Shell Oil (www.shell.com)
Growth in sales from 2002 to 2006 increased by 35%
2002 net income = 9,419M
2006 net income = 26,311M
Growth in net income = 179%

The 10% growth in profit is a year over year basis, i.e. 2005 to 2006. But if 2005 was high to start with, seeing it as only a 10% growth isn't as benign as it sounds. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but I'm also not accepting the oil companies aren't a factor in the cost of gas today. Regardless, I can only control what I do about it and what I believe, not anyone else.

Forgot to add - my original point, which I probably didn't make very well, in bringing up the oil companies in the first place is not about blame but about accepting we all control our own choices. It's easy to blame the oil companies (they raise prices because they can/the public will bear it and keep buying gas) and it's easy to think they're not to blame (they don't control this, that and the other and aren't at fault for anything). Blame is irrelevant. As consumers we make conscious choices, including how much to drive. Some choices are beyond our control (we have to go to work), some are not (take public transportation when available, walk, bike, carpool, telecommute). What I hate seeing is people feeling the pinch by the rising cost of gas but not cutting back on their driving or changing their behavior. Not saying that's what anyone here is doing but I'm sure we all know people like that.

------------------
A meaningful life is built on purpose.

[This message has been edited by homemadebycarol (edited 05-25-2007).]
_________________________
http://pastrychefbaking.blogspot.com

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#22502 - 05/25/07 12:43 PM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
 Quote:
Originally posted by homemadebycarol:

The 10% growth in profit is a year over year basis, i.e. 2005 to 2006. But if 2005 was high to start with, seeing it as only a 10% growth isn't as benign as it sounds. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but I'm also not accepting the oil companies aren't a factor in the cost of gas today. Regardless, I can only control what I do about it and what I believe, not anyone else.



Ummmm I actually did NOT say a 10% growth in profit . . . . their profit MARGIN is 10%(industry average) which is certainly a reasoable return on their investment. In some cases it is more or less depending on if they own and produce their own crude or purchase it on the open market.

Deana


On every gallon of gasoline made, the government makes twice as much money as the oil companies.
_________________________

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#22503 - 05/25/07 12:44 PM Re: Gas Prices
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by homemadebycarol:
I think we can find all sorts of supporting and dissenting information from the various factions of the media & politicians depending on what we look for. But the nice thing about public companies is their published financial data so the public can see the raw data if they choose to.

From Exxon's public financial statements (www.exxon.com):
Growth in sales from 2002 to 2006 increased 82%
2002 net income = 11,460M
2006 net income = 39,500M
Growth in net income: 244%

Royal Dutch Shell Oil (www.shell.com)
Growth in sales from 2002 to 2006 increased by 35%
2002 net income = 9,419M
2006 net income = 26,311M
Growth in net income = 179%

The 10% growth in profit is a year over year basis, i.e. 2005 to 2006. But if 2005 was high to start with, seeing it as only a 10% growth isn't as benign as it sounds. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but I'm also not accepting the oil companies aren't a factor in the cost of gas today. Regardless, I can only control what I do about it and what I believe, not anyone else.

Forgot to add - my original point, which I probably didn't make very well, in bringing up the oil companies in the first place is not about blame but about accepting we all control our own choices. It's easy to blame the oil companies (they raise prices because they can/the public will bear it and keep buying gas) and it's easy to think they're not to blame (they don't control this, that and the other and aren't at fault for anything). Blame is irrelevant. As consumers we make conscious choices, including how much to drive. Some choices are beyond our control (we have to go to work), some are not (take public transportation when available, walk, bike, carpool, telecommute). What I hate seeing is people feeling the pinch by the rising cost of gas but not cutting back on their driving or changing their behavior. Not saying that's what anyone here is doing but I'm sure we all know people like that.



10% doesn't mean year over year growth it is profit margin which is Net Income/Sales. If you look at Exxon 2006 it was 9.8% for the first 3 months of the year in 2007 it was 11.1%. So for every $ they sell after paying all of their expenses, their is $.11 leftover in profits. While the profit margins are much higher with a succesful high tech company like Microsoft, this is still a pretty large profit margin for a commodity based business.

I agree that everyone needs to do their part in conserving energy but it is lip service for most people....people simply don't put actions behind their words...like Vegans who believe that eating meat should be outlawed but wear leather shoes and use other animal based by products. I'll get off my soapbox now.

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#22504 - 05/25/07 01:08 PM Re: Gas Prices
Anonymous
Unregistered


We are really spoiled in this country. In Europe they buy gas by the liter and the cost is much higher. I was watching the news a while back and some women was telling the reporter how she had to hock her wedding rings so her husband could get to work. I couldn't see what type of vehicle she was filling up but after she quit complaining the camera moved back and she was filling up a giant SUV. I would rather buy a smaller vehicle than hock my wedding rings. If people want to drive gas guzzlers they shouldn't complain. I agree with Carol look for alternative ways to get around walk, bicycle, or use public transportation. Just don't whine do something about it.

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#22505 - 05/25/07 01:08 PM Re: Gas Prices
homemadebycarol Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 05/04/99
Posts: 3942
Loc: Reno, NV
 Quote:
Originally posted by bkbroiler:
10% doesn't mean year over year growth it is profit margin which is Net Income/Sales.


Sorry, you're right. But I did calculate year over year growth in net income and for Exxon, 2005 was 36.13B and 2006 was $39.5B (a "record" per their annual report) and that's the 9.3% growth I was thinking of when I said 10% YOY.

 Quote:

While the profit margins are much higher with a succesful high tech company like Microsoft, this is still a pretty large profit margin for a commodity based business.


Absolutely.

 Quote:
I agree that everyone needs to do their part in conserving energy but it is lip service for most people....people simply don't put actions behind their words...


Some people are like that and in that case, they don't get to complain about the rising cost of gas if they're not doing anything about it with regards to their own consumption levels. There are people out there who have cut back but are still feeling the pinch because the cost is going up too much and too fast to absorb.

------------------
A meaningful life is built on purpose.
_________________________
http://pastrychefbaking.blogspot.com

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#22506 - 05/25/07 01:20 PM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
 Quote:
Originally posted by bkbroiler:
While the profit margins are much higher with a succesful high tech company like Microsoft, this is still a pretty large profit margin for a commodity based business.



and my other favorite investment these days is Health Care funds. LOL



hope this link to the chart works~!

Deana
_________________________

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#22507 - 05/25/07 01:34 PM Re: Gas Prices
homemadebycarol Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 05/04/99
Posts: 3942
Loc: Reno, NV
 Quote:
Originally posted by Susan R:
We are really spoiled in this country. In Europe they buy gas by the liter and the cost is much higher. I was watching the news a while back and some women was telling the reporter how she had to hock her wedding rings so her husband could get to work. I couldn't see what type of vehicle she was filling up but after she quit complaining the camera moved back and she was filling up a giant SUV. I would rather buy a smaller vehicle than hock my wedding rings.


Susan, that's so sad! I think people just get used to certain things then never quite figure out what they're doing to themselves and that they do have other choices they can make. Or they make funny choices. I can't figure out which. I've been considering buying a hybrid but my car is already paid for and it came with a 4-year dealer warranty with free service. I'm only in my 3rd year so I'm keeping it until at least then before I consider selling it and buying a hybrid. In the meantime, my investment in my tennis shoes are paying off .


------------------
A meaningful life is built on purpose.
_________________________
http://pastrychefbaking.blogspot.com

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#22508 - 05/25/07 02:42 PM Re: Gas Prices
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Qwackertoo:
and my other favorite investment these days is Health Care funds. LOL



hope this link to the chart works~!

Deana



Microsoft's profit margins are 29.3% according to their latest 10-Q filing. It's no secret why Bill Gates is the richest man in the world.

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#22509 - 05/25/07 03:27 PM Re: Gas Prices
homemadebycarol Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 05/04/99
Posts: 3942
Loc: Reno, NV
Forgot to add on the net profit margin point. For Exxon, based on the financial data in their 10K filing, net income as a % of sales was 5.7% in 2002. It's 10.8% in 2006, a growth of 89% over 4 years for a commodity product. Bill Gates may be the richest man out there but he's got some company.

------------------
A meaningful life is built on purpose.
_________________________
http://pastrychefbaking.blogspot.com

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#22510 - 05/25/07 06:22 PM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
5.7 profit margin sucks in comparison to other industries. I'm glad it is up and I hope it goes up to 5 bucks a gallon before the next Presidential election~! Deana

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/27/commentary/streetlife/streetlife/index.htm

NEW YORK (Fortune) - I'd like to speak in defense of oil companies.

It's not a position I generally like to take but here it goes: I'm SO tired of all this whining! I'm talking about gas prices

First the oil companies scour the freaking globe, going to the most gosh-forsaken dangerous places on earth to find the stuff. Then they pump it. Then they ship the stuff in huge, complicated ships halfway across the world. Then in giant, expensive plants they refine the stuff through amazingly complicated processes and turn in into gasoline. Then they distribute it to rural Nebraska and Vermont and all over the USA. The price is less than a gallon of bottled water, and it's gone up less than inflation, and we take it for granted and we've squandered it with our Suburbans and Tahoes and Navigators.

And now it's gone up a bit and we sound like a bunch of weepy little chipmunks! Yes the oil companies are making TONS of money ... but $3.00 a gallon gas? Deal with it!!!!!!! And even more to the point, buy energy stocks, it's the best revenge!
_________________________

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#22511 - 05/25/07 06:29 PM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
 Quote:
Originally posted by homemadebycarol:
I've been considering buying a hybrid but my car is already paid for and it came with a 4-year dealer warranty with free service. I'm only in my 3rd year so I'm keeping it until at least then before I consider selling it and buying a hybrid.




I think I'll opt out of the tree-hugging and moose mating rallies in AK and buy a Hummer instead~! I heard about this several months ago while listening to talk radio and then shared the article with a couple of message board friends looking to buy the Prius and boy were they surprised. And sure they are assuming the lifespan of the Prius at 100K miles but who knows how long they will or won't last. Hopefully, at least some will look further into the environmental hype than just the surface. LOL

Deana

March 7, 2007

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.



[This message has been edited by Qwackertoo (edited 05-25-2007).]
_________________________

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#22512 - 05/25/07 07:07 PM Re: Gas Prices
Mary F. Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 05/12/99
Posts: 6793
Loc: Milwaukee, WI USA
Deana, I have heard this before about Hybrid's. The cost of the car is not worth the price. Hybrids are only good in the City, other than that, they are worthless when making long trips outside the City.

I don't know how many States require different combinations of gas for winter or summer. We do and they give us that garbage for rising prices.

Then, you are all forgetting that we can not drill for oil in the United States(mainly Alaska, or anywhere off shore, YET CHINA wants to do some off shore drilling where "we" can't.

Another thing, when was the last refinery built? How many were closed for good? All of these things I have mentioned have a part in our gas prices. I am tired of hearing about these places in need of repair and they have to shut them down? Why can't they build more? OOPS, sorry, I do know the answer.

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#22513 - 05/25/07 08:08 PM Re: Gas Prices
Anonymous
Unregistered


Deana why do you want gas to go to 5$ a gallon before the next election. Like I said before we are a spoiled nation. Don't complain people if you drive a gas guzzler.Personally I think the hybrids are ugly. If gas prices irritate you do someting about it, don't wait for someone to fix the problem. Thats how this country is going, everyone wants the government to fix the problem. When we know that generally the government is the problem. Hey maybe if we walked or bicyled more we would be healthier and medical prices would go down. Just a thought.

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#22514 - 05/25/07 08:25 PM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Susan R:
Deana why do you want gas to go to 5$ a gallon before the next election. Like I said before we are a spoiled nation. Don't complain people if you drive a gas guzzler.


I hope it will wake up a majority of the people to see exactly how inept our government is in forming policy (rules, regulations, environmental restrictions) and utilizing their resources (OUR MONEY) and exactly where it has gotten us. We are indeed a spoiled nation but many of us have worked and saved extremely hard for what we have and made sacrifices in order to get where we are so you won't hear any complaints about gas prices from me nor any apologies for what I drive. To all the politicians this is just a game and our hard earned money is their "monopoly" money to squander and waste.

Deana
_________________________

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#22515 - 05/25/07 09:56 PM Re: Gas Prices
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dittos to Deana

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#22516 - 05/26/07 10:58 AM Re: Gas Prices
curt1108 Offline
Elf VP

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 2118
Loc: ft laud,florida
here in florida, due do to hurricane wilma last year,and nobody chould get gas for their generators,all the pumps were down. they passed this law saying that the pump owners had to install special generators in order to retrieve the gas from the pumps after a hurricane has hit. the price for these generators are being said to cost the owners anywhere from 20,000 to 60,000 for them to buy and install. they did this topic on the news last week, and showed none of these gas stations are complying with this law.. i wonder if they will start to fine these places for that.. bottom line is they want to make the money but not spend it.. what else is new

------------------
 Quote:
just click your heels and say "theres no place like home"
_________________________
curt1108 (sue)

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#22517 - 05/26/07 12:43 PM Re: Gas Prices
Qwackertoo Offline
Santa's Helper

Registered: 04/13/99
Posts: 11860
Loc: Rocket City, U.S.A.
 Quote:
Originally posted by curt1108:
the price for these generators are being said to cost the owners anywhere from 20,000 to 60,000 for them to buy and install. they did this topic on the news last week, and showed none of these gas stations are complying with this law.. i wonder if they will start to fine these places for that.. bottom line is they want to make the money but not spend it.. what else is new



The great majority of gas stations are independently owned and operated. Their profit margins are even less than that of the large oil companies and compute in the cost of the fees to credit card companies, which is how many Americans are paying (or in many cases postponing via increased debt) for their increased energy costs, they probably can't afford to buy the generators. You probably won't find many gas station "ONLY" operations around and about America these days as they must rely on the extra profit margin from convenience store or fast food operations to stay in business OR the gasoline operations at your local grocery store like Kroger, Wal-Mart, or wholesale warehouse operation (Sam's, Costco, etc.). The few gas station ONLY operations around here operate on a CASH ONLY basis.

Did your news station mention any of these aspects to the story?

Deana
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